Are these viable builds in PvE and PvP? - Page 2 - Guild Wars Forums

Chthon · Apr 23, 2011, 01:48 AM // 01:48

OP, your question is akin to asking "is a cat good at hunting zebras?" Well, yes if it's a lion, and no if it's a housecat.

GW operates at the level of builds and the level of team builds. That's the only level where a question like this is going to have much meaning or generate very useful answers.

Speusippus · Apr 23, 2011, 01:57 AM // 01:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

OP, your question is akin to asking "is a cat good at hunting zebras?" Well, yes if it's a lion, and no if it's a housecat.

GW operates at the level of builds and the level of team builds. That's the only level where a question like this is going to have much meaning or generate very useful answers.

If someone asks you "Is a cat a viable opponent for a zebra?" then "Only if it's a lion (or tiger or other big cat)" is a very useful answer.

Hawkston · Apr 23, 2011, 02:38 AM // 02:38

Keep in mind that if you plan on joining pick up groups in PvE to complete missions, depending on what primary class you are, the group is going to expect you to play a certain role. For example, monks are usually expected to heal, warriors to control aggro, etc. So as you progress in the game, try to do the one thing well that will not surprise your teammates. As far as secondaries go, as someone else posted, this should usually be one or two skills from your secondary that fill a need your primary might not do well (a self heal for example). You should also pick those secondary skills in line with what opponents you are likely to face. For example, if there re many fire using foes, a mesmer secondary with mantra of flame and a handful of points in inspiration magic will take pressure off your healers.

The same goes for PvP to a certain extent. There are much narrower choices than in PvE - a lot of other players will rage at you if you're not using a "meta" build (unless you're very good and making it work). Like what was posted above, get through as much of PvE as possible before taking a serious go at PvP, if only because you probably won't have unlocked many of the skills you'll need. Have fun!

pinkeyflower · Apr 23, 2011, 03:18 AM // 03:18

I would say that if you want to test a build for PvP it should be through Fort Aspenwood or Jade Quarry simply because they are simply forgiving for using a bad build and it's not particularly fun when you get a somewhat balanced team only for one player to bring down the entire team like in RA.

Chthon · Apr 23, 2011, 05:21 AM // 05:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Speusippus

If someone asks you "Is a cat a viable opponent for a zebra?" then "Only if it's a lion (or tiger or other big cat)" is a very useful answer.

1. Or a jaguar, or a mountain lion, or a leopard, or a puma, or a cheetah, or maybe a lynx, bobcat, or cat sidhe, plus a number of other cat species that I don't even know the names of.

The same's true of GW. No one has the patience, inclination, or knowledge to exhaustively list all non-sucky variants on A/W or whatever.

2. Don't try to defend a stupid question by attacking a metaphor that explains why the question is stupid. It just makes you look like an ass. Even if the metaphor doesn't hold, all that means is that it wasn't a well fitted metaphor; the question remains stupid.

You got your answer: You need to rephrase your question in terms of builds so that it tells us enough to answer it. Now stop being a smartass and go do it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pinkeyflower

I would say that if you want to test a build for PvP it should be through Fort Aspenwood or Jade Quarry simply because they are simply forgiving for using a bad build and it's not particularly fun when you get a somewhat balanced team only for one player to bring down the entire team like in RA.

There's a few problems with using FA and JQ for training grounds. For one, they are both hopelessly biased in favor of the kurzicks. For a second, they have very unusual goals for PvP -- mostly killing NPCs -- that don't matter in "real" PvP until you get all the way up to GvG. For a third thing, they are so chaotic that you rarely have any meaningful feedback on what kind of a contribution you're making. If you don't die the entire match in FA, is it because you're awesome, or because the other team has decided not to waste their time killing the idiot flare spamming their Defy Pain guy?

As painful as it's going to be, both for OP and his unfortunate teammates, RA is the place to learn PvP.

Urcscumug · Apr 23, 2011, 09:35 AM // 09:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Speusippus

BTW When does PvE get challenging? I'm near to level 9 a little after the Searing and I've not been in danger of dying yet...

If you use your head, think about what makes skills go together, read the wiki about the foes you will meet when you enter a mission or a quest, make good teams with henchies or heroes and get decent armor/weapons... never.

The AI is limited and set it its ways. It cannot surprise you, it just plays its preset game. If you know what that game is, end of story.

There is Hard Mode, which you unlock when you finish a campaign with any character, for the entire account. HM means slightly smarter AI (very slightly), higher levels, tougher armor, more damage. That's it, doesn't change much.

PvE is "challenging" only if you intentionally handicap yourself by rushing in unprepared. And even then it's even odds you will still get by. After playing once through each campaign the challenge is pretty much gone (so treasure that first time, don't "cheat" by getting too many heroes and too many advantages).

People then do other stuff to make up a challenge: trying to play through on another profession; discovering 100% of the map; doing "vanquishing" (clearing a zone of foes completely, in hard mode); try to do everything solo (no henchies or monks); "running" (doing zones or missions as fast as possible, usually for the benefit of a paying, passive party member); trying to see how high in a campaign they can get (eg. getting ascended or getting elite armor) while keeping the character as low level as possible; doing "weird" profession combinations; etc.

And that is only the stuff that involves skill, not grind. If you don't mind grind, there's lots of titles that require farming items, money, consumables, XP, faction or reputation points, gimmick titles like LDoA, there's Nicholas rewards, festival-specific awards. There's also focusing on trading, buying low, selling high, start with a capital and amass a fortune etc.

Speusippus · Apr 23, 2011, 11:08 AM // 11:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

1. Or a jaguar, or a mountain lion, or a leopard, or a puma, or a cheetah, or maybe a lynx, bobcat, or cat sidhe, plus a number of other cat species that I don't even know the names of.

The same's true of GW. No one has the patience, inclination, or knowledge to exhaustively list all non-sucky variants on A/W or whatever.

No one asked them to. Read the rest of the thread; we're way past this.

Quote:

2. Don't try to defend a stupid question by attacking a metaphor that explains why the question is stupid. It just makes you look like an ass. Even if the metaphor doesn't hold, all that means is that it wasn't a well fitted metaphor; the question remains stupid.

The one who looks like an ass is the one who's not read the entire short thread before making comments that have already been moved past.

Moreover, I did not attack your metaphor; I accepted it, and explained, in terms of the metaphor, what the value of the question was and what the value of certain answers to it might be.

Quote:

You got your answer: You need to rephrase your question in terms of builds so that it tells us enough to answer it. Now stop being a smartass and go do it.

This point has been made and acknowledged already, in a much more friendly and constructive way than what you're doing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urcscumug

try to do everything solo (no henchies or monks);

Monks can solo the campaign with no henchmen?

That might explain why I've felt like there's no challenge--I'm a monk. I just keep my healing rate up, throw in a heal and a smite here and there, and watch tv while my monk waves his magic wand a thousand times and eventually I win.

Grav · Apr 23, 2011, 11:22 AM // 11:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Speusippus

If someone asks you "Is a cat a viable opponent for a zebra?" then "Only if it's a lion (or tiger or other big cat)" is a very useful answer.

Yes, but not all your opponents in GW will be zebras.

pinkeyflower · Apr 23, 2011, 11:28 AM // 11:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Speusippus

Monks can solo the campaign with no henchmen?

That might explain why I've felt like there's no challenge--I'm a monk. I just keep my healing rate up, throw in a heal and a smite here and there, and watch tv while my monk waves his magic wand a thousand times and eventually I win.

Monks solo (I'm assuming 55 monks) by protting themselves and then using something like Shield of Judgement so that the AI kills itself. You feel the game is easy because it is easy. There are no challenges that stretch the mind and most of the time you are either higher than the AI or you outnumber the AI and the fact that AI are mindless. Also, in my opinion smite with heals sucks.

HawkofStorms · Apr 23, 2011, 03:37 PM // 15:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Speusippus

Monks can solo the campaign with no henchmen?

That might explain why I've felt like there's no challenge--I'm a monk. I just keep my healing rate up, throw in a heal and a smite here and there, and watch tv while my monk waves his magic wand a thousand times and eventually I win.

No they can not. Only if they do certain things (which you aren't doing) can they solo certain areas (not the entire game). It's just a farming build (killing certain monsters alone again and again to get money). Other professions can do the same thing in certain areas with certain skills.

GW doesn't really "begin" until you reach level 20. Everything before that is basically just a tutorial. Unlike other MMO games, GW basically focuses on max level content almost entirely. There is little grind at the start, it is mostly just the story. Trust me, you will hit a brick wall once you reach the desert area (when monsters start getting to be level 20 and higher and you can no longer just beat them by being a higher level then them).

And again, you can change your secondary later in the game as many times as you want. So what you pick as a secondary doesn't really matter in the long term.

Play around with the game. You will figure out on your own what does and doesn't work.

*Darcy* · Apr 23, 2011, 03:58 PM // 15:58

Look in the Campfire section subforums. Each profession has a stickied basics thread and most of the cover the ups and downs of the secondary professions.

Urcscumug · Apr 23, 2011, 05:38 PM // 17:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Speusippus

Monks can solo the campaign with no henchmen?

They can, but it's a gimmick for people who want a challenge, or for farming certain areas, not a normal way of playing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Speusippus

That might explain why I've felt like there's no challenge--I'm a monk. I just keep my healing rate up, throw in a heal and a smite here and there, and watch tv while my monk waves his magic wand a thousand times and eventually I win.

I said it's easy if you do the research and after you've had some practice. For the time being, it looks like you're getting by just doing a little healing here and there and you find the time to throw in some smites too. I know how it is, I got to LA on a monk myself and I thought it was a fun little trip. Then it got worse.

You will get into situations when you team's bars will glow in all the colors of the rainbow and start draining like mad, you will have to balance heals with condition and hex removal, foresee where the next damage will come and fire off protection spells just before that, plus kite in case the enemy melee locks on you. Not to even mention extra gimmicks like slapping extra damage against undead on a melee team member.

If Ascalon and the Shiverpeaks don't show you a thing or two, Kryta and Maguuma definitely will. And if you manage to get around that, by the time you reach Crystal Desert you'll either be a decent monk or you'll hit a brick wall, like it was already mentioned. At which point some people cave in and get heroes and max armor... and some become good monks.

So... I wouldn't worry about lack of challenge just yet. You're what, 10% into Prophecies? Where exactly have you reached, anyway?

Speusippus · Apr 25, 2011, 06:46 PM // 18:46

A related question:

Given two characters, both of which focus their attribute points on their primary's unique attribute in addition to Air Magic and Marksmanship, and both of which use exactly the same skill set (some combination of marksmanship and air magic skills), and where the only difference between them is that one is an E/R and the other an R/E, am I right in thinking that in terms of gameplay the main significant difference between the two characters will be that the E/R has worse armor? (As well, the E/R will have a larger energy pool while the R/E will have cheaper marksmanship powers, but I'm not sure if that's a significant difference or if it balances out).

Dzjudz · Apr 25, 2011, 07:03 PM // 19:03

The differences:

- 60 vs 70 base armor, ranger has an additional 30 armor vs elemental damage (100 base armor vs elemental damage)
- Different insignia and rune usage (can only use primary profession insignia and runes)
- 4 vs 3 base energy regeneration
- 30 vs 25 base energy (ele has additional from energy storage)
- energy storage vs expertise

(non-gameplay related difference is of course appearance of character and armor)

Crom The Pale · Apr 25, 2011, 08:26 PM // 20:26

To expand upon the responce you just recieved you are looking at a big difference in damage.

Ranger will be able to put up to 16(most go with 14/15 to avoid the penalty of sup runes) in marksmanship.
Elementalist can only put 12 in marksmanship.

While 2 or 3 extra points in an attribute doesn't sound like much it does add up in the long run. Not only will you do more damage with Marksmanship skills your base damage with the bow will also increase slightly. The only way to offset this with your current choices would be to run a Conjure(fire/ice/lightning) build where you have 14/15 in Fire/Air/Water in order to max out your dmg potential with an Ele/Ranger.

Speusippus · Apr 25, 2011, 09:07 PM // 21:07

About attribute points:

I read that you get a total of 170 by level 20 (not counting attribute point quests). How does that work? You get five per level, don't you? Shouldn't the total be 100?

(ETA: Never mind--I misread what I was looking at, and now I see that you get 10 points per level later on and 15 further down.)

And:

Is it standardly thought that it's better to have a build that puts 12 points in two attributes than one that puts 10 points in three attributes? Or is this situational?

BrettM · Apr 25, 2011, 10:13 PM // 22:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Speusippus

Is it standardly thought that it's better to have a build that puts 12 points in two attributes than one that puts 10 points in three attributes? Or is this situational?

Distribution of attribute points is very situational, however it is generally best to keep your focus as narrow as possible. There are many good builds that use three attributes. Very few that use four. None I can think of that use five.

Points are not usually distributed evenly, though. One has to consider the break points for the skills used in the build and adjust points for best effect. Most ele or ranger builds will try to keep the primary attribute at 12, and distribute the remaining points among others, though there are exceptions. On the other hand, a smiting monk using only direct damage skills can run with zero points in Divine Favor, allowing him to max both smiting prayers and an attribute from a secondary profession. A warrior build focused on Tactics may have very few points in Strength, reserving the rest for weapon mastery.

There are skills that require little or no investment in their attribute line to be useful. Glyph of Lesser Energy is a classic example that monks often use for energy management. Maelstrom provides useful interrupts even with no points in Water Magic, while Glyph of Swiftness is often used with just enough Air Magic points to affect two spells.

Some professions regularly run three-attribute builds because of the nature of the profession. For example, a paragon usually needs points in Leadership (primary attribute), Spear Mastery for his weapon, and either Command or Motivation to provide buffs and meet his shield requirement. Mesmers usually run Inspiration Magic about eight for energy management, along with the build's main focus on Fast Casting and either Domination or Illusion.

**Marty Silverblade** · Apr 25, 2011, 10:13 PM // 22:13

Generally you want to stick to as few attributes as you can unless there's something really worthwhile in another attribute line or having attributes at 13 and 14 isn't helpful. I can't give specific advice without context.

Urcscumug · Apr 26, 2011, 05:30 PM // 17:30

Regarding attribute point spread, it's ideal to keep them focused on two attributes. But it's not that uncommon to spread into three. Usually, spreading into four or five is an alert signal and usually it means you're trying to do too much at once with a single character or hero.

The most common spreads are 12+12+3 (common example: Ele, for ES=12, fire or air damage=12, water snare=3); 11+10+10 (common example: Monk, for Divine Favor, Protection and Healing, not necessarily in this order); 11+11+8 (often used by all professions, except perhaps E and W).

These spreads can be tweaked with runes for +1 or +2 buffs; but I advice postponing this at least until you've passed the port town (Lion's Arch, Kaineng Center or Consulate Docks). And even then you will rethink your strategy as time passes, you get skills, you understand professions better etc. Expect a certain amount of money wasted on applying the "wrong" runes/insignia in "wrong" positions. But on the other hand runes make possible spreads such as 11+11+11 etc.

Regarding E/R vs R/E, the differences are more than you've mentioned. Usually the primary attribute and the primary skills are designed to synergise in a manner that's hard to replicate without the primary attribute.

Taking this example, the energy pool granted by ES to eles is useful, but it's only half the story. The other half is ES skills which help reduce the cost of spells. Ranger doesn't have spells and the ES skills usually don't apply to ranger skills, so... The same goes for the other combination; Expertise applies to select skills and ele spells are not among them. Furthermore, the ranger energy management skills are tied to either the bow or the pet, which as a primary ele you're not likely to use.

Then there's the fact that weapons and offhand items are quite different for each of them, and, more importantly, the mods are aimed at casters and physicals, respectively, so they don't exactly go well with the primary.

There are exceptions that make it possible to do a gimmicky build that works. For example, physicals often use Conjure spells with an elemental-damage-modded weapon. Quick off-the-top of my head example: primary ranger with 12 into Fire Magic, 12+ into Marksmanship, Fiery Bow String, Conjure Flame, apply a preparation that adds more damage or faster fire rate or arrow speed (Read The Wind + flatbow spring to mind), plus some points in rank 3 Earth Magic for something like Armor of Earth or Kinetic Armor. Result: a tough little "machine-gun" with great range.

I haven't given much thought to E/R using particular R skills, maybe others can help.

Dzjudz · Apr 26, 2011, 06:52 PM // 18:52

12-10-8 is very common as well.

But then again, no attribute spread is impossible, it just depends on which skills you are using and their useful attribute breakpoints.

Apr 25, 2011, 07:03 PM // 19:03	#34
Dzjudz Furnace Stoker Join Date: Jun 2005 Guild: gwpvx.com/user:dzjudz	The differences: - 60 vs 70 base armor, ranger has an additional 30 armor vs elemental damage (100 base armor vs elemental damage) - Different insignia and rune usage (can only use primary profession insignia and runes) - 4 vs 3 base energy regeneration - 30 vs 25 base energy (ele has additional from energy storage) - energy storage vs expertise (non-gameplay related difference is of course appearance of character and armor) Last edited by Dzjudz; Apr 25, 2011 at 07:06 PM // 19:06..

Apr 25, 2011, 10:13 PM // 22:13	#38
Marty Silverblade Administrator Join Date: Jun 2006	Generally you want to stick to as few attributes as you can unless there's something really worthwhile in another attribute line or having attributes at 13 and 14 isn't helpful. I can't give specific advice without context. __________________

Apr 23, 2011, 01:48 AM // 01:48	#21
Chthon Grotto Attendant Join Date: Apr 2007	OP, your question is akin to asking "is a cat good at hunting zebras?" Well, yes if it's a lion, and no if it's a housecat. GW operates at the level of builds and the level of team builds. That's the only level where a question like this is going to have much meaning or generate very useful answers.

Apr 23, 2011, 02:38 AM // 02:38	#23
Hawkston Ascalonian Squire Join Date: Apr 2011	Keep in mind that if you plan on joining pick up groups in PvE to complete missions, depending on what primary class you are, the group is going to expect you to play a certain role. For example, monks are usually expected to heal, warriors to control aggro, etc. So as you progress in the game, try to do the one thing well that will not surprise your teammates. As far as secondaries go, as someone else posted, this should usually be one or two skills from your secondary that fill a need your primary might not do well (a self heal for example). You should also pick those secondary skills in line with what opponents you are likely to face. For example, if there re many fire using foes, a mesmer secondary with mantra of flame and a handful of points in inspiration magic will take pressure off your healers. The same goes for PvP to a certain extent. There are much narrower choices than in PvE - a lot of other players will rage at you if you're not using a "meta" build (unless you're very good and making it work). Like what was posted above, get through as much of PvE as possible before taking a serious go at PvP, if only because you probably won't have unlocked many of the skills you'll need. Have fun!

Apr 23, 2011, 03:18 AM // 03:18	#24
pinkeyflower Krytan Explorer Join Date: Jan 2010	I would say that if you want to test a build for PvP it should be through Fort Aspenwood or Jade Quarry simply because they are simply forgiving for using a bad build and it's not particularly fun when you get a somewhat balanced team only for one player to bring down the entire team like in RA.

Apr 23, 2011, 03:58 PM // 15:58	#31
Darcy Never Too Old Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Rhode Island where there are no GW contests Guild: Order of First Profession: W/R	Look in the Campfire section subforums. Each profession has a stickied basics thread and most of the cover the ups and downs of the secondary professions.

Apr 25, 2011, 06:46 PM // 18:46	#33
Speusippus Ascalonian Squire Join Date: Apr 2011	A related question: Given two characters, both of which focus their attribute points on their primary's unique attribute in addition to Air Magic and Marksmanship, and both of which use exactly the same skill set (some combination of marksmanship and air magic skills), and where the only difference between them is that one is an E/R and the other an R/E, am I right in thinking that in terms of gameplay the main significant difference between the two characters will be that the E/R has worse armor? (As well, the E/R will have a larger energy pool while the R/E will have cheaper marksmanship powers, but I'm not sure if that's a significant difference or if it balances out).

Apr 25, 2011, 08:26 PM // 20:26	#35
Crom The Pale Furnace Stoker Join Date: Nov 2006 Guild: Ageis Ascending Profession: W/	To expand upon the responce you just recieved you are looking at a big difference in damage. Ranger will be able to put up to 16(most go with 14/15 to avoid the penalty of sup runes) in marksmanship. Elementalist can only put 12 in marksmanship. While 2 or 3 extra points in an attribute doesn't sound like much it does add up in the long run. Not only will you do more damage with Marksmanship skills your base damage with the bow will also increase slightly. The only way to offset this with your current choices would be to run a Conjure(fire/ice/lightning) build where you have 14/15 in Fire/Air/Water in order to max out your dmg potential with an Ele/Ranger.

Apr 25, 2011, 09:07 PM // 21:07	#36
Speusippus Ascalonian Squire Join Date: Apr 2011	About attribute points: I read that you get a total of 170 by level 20 (not counting attribute point quests). How does that work? You get five per level, don't you? Shouldn't the total be 100? (ETA: Never mind--I misread what I was looking at, and now I see that you get 10 points per level later on and 15 further down.) And: Is it standardly thought that it's better to have a build that puts 12 points in two attributes than one that puts 10 points in three attributes? Or is this situational?

Apr 26, 2011, 05:30 PM // 17:30	#39
Urcscumug Krytan Explorer Join Date: Jan 2011 Guild: UNO Profession: W/	Regarding attribute point spread, it's ideal to keep them focused on two attributes. But it's not that uncommon to spread into three. Usually, spreading into four or five is an alert signal and usually it means you're trying to do too much at once with a single character or hero. The most common spreads are 12+12+3 (common example: Ele, for ES=12, fire or air damage=12, water snare=3); 11+10+10 (common example: Monk, for Divine Favor, Protection and Healing, not necessarily in this order); 11+11+8 (often used by all professions, except perhaps E and W). These spreads can be tweaked with runes for +1 or +2 buffs; but I advice postponing this at least until you've passed the port town (Lion's Arch, Kaineng Center or Consulate Docks). And even then you will rethink your strategy as time passes, you get skills, you understand professions better etc. Expect a certain amount of money wasted on applying the "wrong" runes/insignia in "wrong" positions. But on the other hand runes make possible spreads such as 11+11+11 etc. Regarding E/R vs R/E, the differences are more than you've mentioned. Usually the primary attribute and the primary skills are designed to synergise in a manner that's hard to replicate without the primary attribute. Taking this example, the energy pool granted by ES to eles is useful, but it's only half the story. The other half is ES skills which help reduce the cost of spells. Ranger doesn't have spells and the ES skills usually don't apply to ranger skills, so... The same goes for the other combination; Expertise applies to select skills and ele spells are not among them. Furthermore, the ranger energy management skills are tied to either the bow or the pet, which as a primary ele you're not likely to use. Then there's the fact that weapons and offhand items are quite different for each of them, and, more importantly, the mods are aimed at casters and physicals, respectively, so they don't exactly go well with the primary. There are exceptions that make it possible to do a gimmicky build that works. For example, physicals often use Conjure spells with an elemental-damage-modded weapon. Quick off-the-top of my head example: primary ranger with 12 into Fire Magic, 12+ into Marksmanship, Fiery Bow String, Conjure Flame, apply a preparation that adds more damage or faster fire rate or arrow speed (Read The Wind + flatbow spring to mind), plus some points in rank 3 Earth Magic for something like Armor of Earth or Kinetic Armor. Result: a tough little "machine-gun" with great range. I haven't given much thought to E/R using particular R skills, maybe others can help.

Apr 26, 2011, 06:52 PM // 18:52	#40
Dzjudz Furnace Stoker Join Date: Jun 2005 Guild: gwpvx.com/user:dzjudz	12-10-8 is very common as well. But then again, no attribute spread is impossible, it just depends on which skills you are using and their useful attribute breakpoints.